Curse

JoDiamonds · Aug 04, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I believe it would be helpful (and a relatively small change) to be able to see your allies energy levels.

I agree that there is no need to automatically be able to see enemy energy levels. That should be something discovered through gameplay. (Currently difficult, but a fine thing to possibly add in the future ...)

Night Raven · Aug 04, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Sure hope the Devs find this thread.

Born · Aug 04, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

It would be nice to see party energy bars but in fairness, enemy energy bars shouldnt be shown.

Even if it was just a number by there names in the party bar would be good enuff.

Thanas · Aug 04, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born

It would be nice to see party energy bars but in fairness, enemy energy bars shouldnt be shown.

Even if it was just a number by there names in the party bar would be good enuff.

When you click on an enemy you are able to see their health and most recent hex etc, so why is it unreasonable to see their energy too. As a necro/mesmer I rely heavily on being able to gauge my enemies energy level. I use spells which attack mana. In knowing mana levels of enemies better strategies would evolve. Currently when anyone comes up against a team with a monk, the strategy ussually involves chasing the monk regardless of how much energy that monk has and thus his healing capability. If a team were to realise the monks energy levels they may for example go fight the necro providing that energy or may employ a mesemer to steal energy. As you can see this would broaden the scope of play and would not require any great changes. Now I know this exmple is simplified but it goes some way to illustrating my point. I understand some people are uncomfortable with this from looking at various replies. However no one has yet stated why this is bad. Any constructive comments would be welcomed. Thankyou.

p.s. ENDING would it possible to add this thread to your ideas post???

Rulke · Aug 04, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born

but in fairness, enemy energy bars shouldnt be shown.

Why not?

In fairness, therefore, we shouldn't show their health, either.

But then we'd have all the nukers and tanks complaining when they wasted their high cost skills on them.

As it is, we now waste potentially all of our energy draining skills on them, as we can't tell what effect, if any, they have.

Thanas · Aug 04, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

I believe it would be helpful (and a relatively small change) to be able to see your allies energy levels.

I agree that there is no need to automatically be able to see enemy energy levels. That should be something discovered through gameplay. (Currently difficult, but a fine thing to possibly add in the future ...)

Why IYHO do you belive seeing enemy energy levels is not necessary? I feel that it would be very useful and as a gameplay feature it shouldn't be something you aquire. Thanks for your comments!

Thanas · Aug 04, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulke

Why not?

In fairness, therefore, we shouldn't show their health, either.

But then we'd have all the nukers and tanks complaining when they wasted their high cost skills on them.

As it is, we now waste potentially all of our energy draining skills on them, as we can't tell what effect, if any, they have.

Exactly my point, a warrior can see his damage potential as a melee character, why as a part mesmer character can I not see the energy damage I cause?

JoDiamonds · Aug 04, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Why IYHO do you belive seeing enemy energy levels is not necessary? I feel that it would be very useful and as a gameplay feature it shouldn't be something you aquire. Thanks for your comments!

It is unrealistic. Sure, this is a magical world, but even in most fantasy settings, it's obvious when someone is hurt (you see blood, for one thing), but not obvious how much magical energy they have.
Because it's a better gameplay feature when you don't know.
- You can find out to some extent now by using the correct skills. Skills such as Energy Tap will show you when the enemy is out of energy, because you don't get it if they don't have it. There's numerous skills that can do that.
- A fine future skill would be something that shows you enemy energy with a skill. This could potentially even be a passive skill, in that loading it onto your bar automatically grants you the ability all the time.
- A possible future mod would include more innate skills for character classes; maybe Elementalists or Mesmers have the innate ability to see enemy energy (due to training), but other classes don't. (By that count, maybe only Warriors should be able to see enemy health bars. I don't see that as strictly bad.)
- Seeing their energy bar isn't the same as seeing their energy. 100% doesn't tell you if it's 20 or 80 energy.
- In short, it limits the possible future gameplay if it's just out there for everyone to see. I'd rather open up more gameplay possbilities.

Snuk the Great · Aug 05, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Seeing allys energy levels good.
Seeing enemys energy levels bad.
Of course it is usefull to see how much mana your group has. It saves a lot of time.
The enemys mana should not be shown because its not real and takes away the element of surprise. Think its more of an oppinion but I would not want to know what the enemys energy is.

zehly · Aug 05, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Add the energy bar thingy! And as a UI improvement, give the ability to display numerically the current/max status of the other teammates energy! But not enemies.. I mean, you don't get a sidebar to see your enemies health on your UI, do you? Adding the feature for the party = good.. for the enemies... PvE it's not necessary. PvP might make it a little unfair... kinda like seeing if the grass is cut or clean before you get to the house *snicker*

Thanas · Aug 05, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Add the energy bar thingy! And as a UI improvement, give the ability to display numerically the current/max status of the other teammates energy! But not enemies.. I mean, you don't get a sidebar to see your enemies health on your UI, do you? Adding the feature for the party = good.. for the enemies... PvE it's not necessary. PvP might make it a little unfair... kinda like seeing if the grass is cut or clean before you get to the house *snicker*

How is adding an energy bar unfair? You are able to see enemy health. This isn't thought of as unfair. For a melee character who mainly concentrates on damage, they are able to see what effect they are having on a given enemy by observing the health bar. For a character that attacks energy they cannot. This IMHO is unfair.

BTW you can see enemy health. If you select an enemy their health is dispalyed in the uppermost bar. I believe information on energy should be also placed here.

Ristaron · Aug 05, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I'm all for energy bars in the party window being shown, and I don't really care if the enemy energy bar is shown. I mostly play monk, it would matter little to me unless the person is a mesmer...

Veripare · Aug 05, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

/Signed

I'm a Monk / Water Elementalist and I can run out of Energy fast... So with this content implemented, the Necromancers with 'Well of power' or 'Blood ritual' could see that im low on mana and 'recharge' me =D

~Veripare

Thanas · Aug 05, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

It is unrealistic. Sure, this is a magical world, but even in most fantasy settings, it's obvious when someone is hurt (you see blood, for one thing), but not obvious how much magical energy they have.
Because it's a better gameplay feature when you don't know.
- You can find out to some extent now by using the correct skills. Skills such as Energy Tap will show you when the enemy is out of energy, because you don't get it if they don't have it. There's numerous skills that can do that.
- A fine future skill would be something that shows you enemy energy with a skill. This could potentially even be a passive skill, in that loading it onto your bar automatically grants you the ability all the time.
- A possible future mod would include more innate skills for character classes; maybe Elementalists or Mesmers have the innate ability to see enemy energy (due to training), but other classes don't. (By that count, maybe only Warriors should be able to see enemy health bars. I don't see that as strictly bad.)
- Seeing their energy bar isn't the same as seeing their energy. 100% doesn't tell you if it's 20 or 80 energy.
- In short, it limits the possible future gameplay if it's just out there for everyone to see. I'd rather open up more gameplay possbilities.

Thanks for those points!

Firstly I would just like to make a point about realism. This argument is completley flawed. You are looking at this from the point of someone who lives in a world where magic is not present. Yes I completely agree that the state of someones health may be gauged from looking at their physical appearance, thus displaying a health bar is realistic (although the characters show no outward signs of damage in the game, which is unrealistic). However living in a world permeated by magic would give you certain new senses and thus being adept in magic you would most likely be able to gauge the energy fatigue of a give magical character. Therefore displaying an energy bar is perfectly realsitic in this setting. Also I'd like to make the point that we are talking about fantasy, which in itself is unrealistic.

Secondly you've made a statement as your second point. My question to you is why is it a better gameplay feature?

Thirdly why should you have to gauge an enemies energy by using energy draining skills of your own. This wastes time and is a clusmy method of determining enemy energy levels. By the time you recast that enemy may have an energy regen on them, which you cannot detect through stealing energy. In observing their energy you could counter this. This visual aid does not reduce strategies but increases them since it motivates players to attack a players energy as well as their health. A team with no energy is less likely to win a fight than a team on full energy. Therefore attacking energy is a valid form of offence, which needs for be given more attention. As I mentioned this would increase the number of strategies we see being used. Currently mesmers and necros have a bad time cause they concentrate more on skills of this nature and thus are overlooked. Energy warfare is currently not considered. However there are so many time where I have aided my team through energy regen!

Fourthly why make it an attainable skill. This is unrealistic! It just alienates those characters who concentrate on manipulating energy.

Fifthly when you attack a players health you don't require exact information, just a gauge on their current health status. Whether its low, high, whether they have been healed, regen, degen, conditions, hexes etc etc. In the same way this info is useful for a character who attacks energy, exact number aren't needed. For example you see a monk with high energy, you attack that monks energy to reduce his healing capability. You reduce this energy and then you find it regens. You find the character providing the regen and attempt to disrupt them. Or you counter that through energy degen. With no energy bar you are none the wiser to that monks energy and its status. Thus it is unlikely you will attack its energy and the monk is free to heal. Currently energy stealing tactics are pretty much a grey area. Thus as I said earlier allowing a visible energy gauge would expand tactics that could be used and this only helps improve the game.

Finally, your final comment has no relation whatsoever to the rest of your points. It is in no way a conclusion and is fact an isolated statement. As I have gone to show you, the implementation of an energy bar will only go to improve gameplay, not hinder it. It need not appear above a players head but in the status bar at the top of the screen. Introducing such a feature would also go to balance gameplay. Since Necros and Mesmers would be more widely used and be better implamemted into player groups.

JoDiamonds · Aug 05, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Thanks for those points!

You are welcome. However, I seriously object to the rest of your post. Your manners and methods of debate have little to do with logic. I disagree with nearly everything you've said.

Quote:

Firstly I would just like to make a point about realism. This argument is completley flawed. You are looking at this from the point of someone who lives in a world where magic is not present.

Yes, much like yourself. You have no more authority to say what is realistic here than anyone else. Which means it comes down to game design.

Saying something is "completely flawed" requires a far more convincing, logical argument than you present. I conceded points to you when making my original statements, yet you seem to believe that you must entirely refute anyone disagreeing with you.

Quote:

Secondly you've made a statement as your second point. My question to you is why is it a better gameplay feature?

This makes me wonder (without trying to be offensive) if you are merely not a native English speaker. I'm introducing the next few points, which I indented to make that clear.

Yes, I made a statement. Then I proceeded to back it up. It's not good writing to write it as one long sentence.

Quote:

Thirdly why should you have to gauge an enemies energy by using energy draining skills of your own. This wastes time and is a clusmy method of determining enemy energy levels. By the time you recast that enemy may have an energy regen on them, which you cannot detect through stealing energy. In observing their energy you could counter this.

It does not currently waste time, it gives you information you cannot get otherwise, as you've stated.

Quote:

This visual aid does not reduce strategies but increases them since it motivates players to attack a players energy as well as their health.

I do not believe that players need motivation to attack an enemy player's energy. Players already do that.

Besides that, "motivating players" has nothing to do with adding strategy.

This statement makes no sense, and is simply wrong.

Quote:

A team with no energy is less likely to win a fight than a team on full energy.

Yes.

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Therefore attacking energy is a valid form of offence,

Yes.

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which needs for be given more attention.

No.

This is obviously a matter of opinion, but you present it in parallel with other obviously true statements. A clever and terrible debate technique.

I disagree completely.

Quote:

As I mentioned this would increase the number of strategies we see being used.

I disagree. I believe it reduces the space of gameplay available to the developers for future expansions and skills, and does not enhance current gameplay at all.

Quote:

Currently mesmers and necros have a bad time cause they concentrate more on skills of this nature and thus are overlooked.

I disagree. I think most experienced players understand all of these things fine, and that mesmers and necromancers do not "have a bad time" in any way. You really don't even say what "have a bad time" means.

Quote:

Energy warfare is currently not considered.

Untrue. Maybe you don't consider it, but that seems unlikely, and I know many other players "consider" it. I know because they actively engage in energy warfare, as you call it.

Quote:

However there are so many time where I have aided my team through energy regen!

So? What does this have to do with seeing enemy energy bars?

Quote:

Fourthly why make it an attainable skill. This is unrealistic! It just alienates those characters who concentrate on manipulating energy.

Your argument makes no sense. How is making it an attainable skill unrealistic? You made several points saying that this is all fantasy yourself!

I don't think any characters are particularly alienated. I disagree with this completely.

Quote:

Fifthly when you attack a players health you don't require exact information, just a gauge on their current health status. Whether its low, high, whether they have been healed, regen, degen, conditions, hexes etc etc. In the same way this info is useful for a character who attacks energy, exact number aren't needed.

Being useful is not a good reason to give a player something. It would be useful for me if my character in Guild Wars had a magical wand I could point at enemies and they simply died, but that doesn't mean such a thing should exist.

As you say, when you attack a player's health you don't require exact information. This is also true for energy. It just so happens that the information is even less exact. But you can still attack it, even though you earlier stated no one does this.

Quote:

For example you see a monk with high energy, you attack that monks energy to reduce his healing capability. You reduce this energy and then you find it regens. You find the character providing the regen and attempt to disrupt them. Or you counter that through energy degen. With no energy bar you are none the wiser to that monks energy and its status.

I suggest you play more. All of the actions you state are things that players already do.

Quote:

Thus it is unlikely you will attack its energy and the monk is free to heal.

I don't know what game you've been playing, but attacking the monk's energy is something I see many players already doing. I have no idea where you get the idea that "it is unlikely you will attack its energy". Players do this already.

Quote:

Currently energy stealing tactics are pretty much a grey area. Thus as I said earlier allowing a visible energy gauge would expand tactics that could be used and this only helps improve the game.

This is the crux of the argument. I disagree with this completely.

Quote:

Finally, your final comment has no relation whatsoever to the rest of your points. It is in no way a conclusion

Of course it is a conclusion. You even obviously recognize it as a concluding statement! This isn't changed merely because you don't like what I'm saying.

Quote:

and is fact an isolated statement.

So you didn't read all of the earlier statements that you replied to?

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As I have gone to show you, the implementation of an energy bar will only go to improve gameplay, not hinder it.

I believe you have only shown that you either don't understand fighting with energy denial in Guild Wars, possibly English (in which case I apologize for mistaking your tone as purely attacking what I've said in ways to discredit me), and certainly the use of logic in debate.

Quote:

It need not appear above a players head but in the status bar at the top of the screen. Introducing such a feature would also go to balance gameplay.

I don't understand this at all. Whether or not there are energy bars, this is true for you and your enemy. The game is clearly already fair and balanced in this manner.

Quote:

Since Necros and Mesmers would be more widely used and be better implamemted into player groups.

I do not see a problem with Necromancers and Mesmers. I don't see a reason we need to change things so they will be more widely used. You make this statement as if it is a goal, and maybe it is your goal, but you didn't even state it anywhere.

My apologies for being so harsh, but it seems you only listen to counterarguments enough to attempt to entirely discredit them. It also does not seem like your arguments are necessarily being made in the interests of making Guild Wars a better game. It much more seems like you want to "win" this topic of discussion utterly and completely, and discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

I should probably have done what I was initially going to do, which was make a brief reply stating that I simply disagree with everything you said. But I couldn't see that accomplishing anything positive. Then again, this might not either.

Thanas · Aug 05, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

You are welcome. However, I seriously object to the rest of your post. Your manners and methods of debate have little to do with logic. I disagree with nearly everything you've said.

Yes, much like yourself. You have no more authority to say what is realistic here than anyone else. Which means it comes down to game design.

Saying something is "completely flawed" requires a far more convincing, logical argument than you present. I conceded points to you when making my original statements, yet you seem to believe that you must entirely refute anyone disagreeing with you.

This makes me wonder (without trying to be offensive) if you are merely not a native English speaker. I'm introducing the next few points, which I indented to make that clear.

Yes, I made a statement. Then I proceeded to back it up. It's not good writing to write it as one long sentence.

It does not currently waste time, it gives you information you cannot get otherwise, as you've stated.

I do not believe that players need motivation to attack an enemy player's energy. Players already do that.

Besides that, "motivating players" has nothing to do with adding strategy.

This statement makes no sense, and is simply wrong.

Yes.

Yes.

No.

This is obviously a matter of opinion, but you present it in parallel with other obviously true statements. A clever and terrible debate technique.

I disagree completely.

I disagree. I believe it reduces the space of gameplay available to the developers for future expansions and skills, and does not enhance current gameplay at all.

I disagree. I think most experienced players understand all of these things fine, and that mesmers and necromancers do not "have a bad time" in any way. You really don't even say what "have a bad time" means.

Untrue. Maybe you don't consider it, but that seems unlikely, and I know many other players "consider" it. I know because they actively engage in energy warfare, as you call it.

So? What does this have to do with seeing enemy energy bars?

Your argument makes no sense. How is making it an attainable skill unrealistic? You made several points saying that this is all fantasy yourself!

I don't think any characters are particularly alienated. I disagree with this completely.

Being useful is not a good reason to give a player something. It would be useful for me if my character in Guild Wars had a magical wand I could point at enemies and they simply died, but that doesn't mean such a thing should exist.

As you say, when you attack a player's health you don't require exact information. This is also true for energy. It just so happens that the information is even less exact. But you can still attack it, even though you earlier stated no one does this.

I suggest you play more. All of the actions you state are things that players already do.

I don't know what game you've been playing, but attacking the monk's energy is something I see many players already doing. I have no idea where you get the idea that "it is unlikely you will attack its energy". Players do this already.

This is the crux of the argument. I disagree with this completely.

Of course it is a conclusion. You even obviously recognize it as a concluding statement! This isn't changed merely because you don't like what I'm saying.

So you didn't read all of the earlier statements that you replied to?

I believe you have only shown that you either don't understand fighting with energy denial in Guild Wars, possibly English (in which case I apologize for mistaking your tone as purely attacking what I've said in ways to discredit me), and certainly the use of logic in debate.

I don't understand this at all. Whether or not there are energy bars, this is true for you and your enemy. The game is clearly already fair and balanced in this manner.

I do not see a problem with Necromancers and Mesmers. I don't see a reason we need to change things so they will be more widely used. You make this statement as if it is a goal, and maybe it is your goal, but you didn't even state it anywhere.

My apologies for being so harsh, but it seems you only listen to counterarguments enough to attempt to entirely discredit them. It also does not seem like your arguments are necessarily being made in the interests of making Guild Wars a better game. It much more seems like you want to "win" this topic of discussion utterly and completely, and discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

I should probably have done what I was initially going to do, which was make a brief reply stating that I simply disagree with everything you said. But I couldn't see that accomplishing anything positive. Then again, this might not either.

Right lets start off on a little better footing. I want to understand where you are coming from with your line of thought. Firstly may I ask whats characters you have played?

For the record I am English. However your conclusion made no sense to me probably because I am coming from entirely the different end of the spectrum with regards to this argument. For that reason it is understandable that we entirely disagree with one another.

Thanas · Aug 11, 2005, 10:58 AM // 10:58

*bump*

Esprit · Aug 11, 2005, 11:52 AM // 11:52

The energy bar issue has been brought up before, but it still worth to remind people again.

Energy status bars for allies would be good. I could see energy bars for enemies going either way. As for enemy health bars, in real life you could technically tell if someone is hurt, whether they are bleeding or limping or whatever, the health bar in game just compensates.

Plus, if they put energy bars for enemies, think how deperessed we'd get when we fight enemy bosses and their energy bar seems to have twice or thrice the regen rate as ours.

But, try keeping track of your allies energy usage, it's pretty difficult, you have to be familiar with all the skills to know their energy usage, and you also have to focus on your allies and enemies, which makes it more tedious. Plus, I doubt energy renewal necros don't want to wait until they see their allies with 0 energy. They'd rather throw on an energy renewal skill when allies are aroun 50% energy, so that there is a constant flow of damage dealing. That's why energy status bars are useful.

People don't always listen or realize to why you are spamming your energy,

You: "I have 3 of 67 energy."
Other player 1 thinks, "I will spam my energy too."
Other player 1, "I have 30 of 42 energy."
Rest of allies, "OOO STATUS SPAMMING ALL AROUND!!!"
*for a minute people spam their health and energy*

I've seen the above happen all too many times, because all I was trying to do was to indicate that I need to recharge, but a good percentage of that time it either ends up like how I described above, or I am just simply ignored.

Thanas · Aug 11, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

The only reason I see enemy energy bars as useful is so it is possible to observe the effects of energy based spells. What would be the point for example in stealing energy from a character with no energy. Also how do I know to counter enemy energy regen if I don't know this is occuring. I sort of understand peoples oversion to having energy bars for enemies, because it effectively make them more vunerable to attack. However it can be used against opponents to wreak havoc. I play a character with the potential to do massive amounts of energy damage. However I rarely use these skills because simply spamming energy steal when I don't know what effect it is having seems quite pointless.

Esprit · Aug 11, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I agree that it is hard to accurately determine energy of an enemy. I've used energy drain spells on enemies that had none, and so I effectively wasted the spell. Though, had I been paying attention I would have realized that an enemy that is at 1/3 health probably has no energy to cast Troll Ungent, Healing Spring, Life Siphon, etc... I think to an extent you can be aware of what spells are being used, and that's what makes the difference between a good player and a great player, in my opinion, if you can be aware of the enemies energy status.

Maybe ANET figures, that if you know the skills, and you know the class you can make a educated guess on energy status of an enemy.

I guess you could say the same for your allies, but I'd rather focus on the enemy than trying to see what my group is casting all the time.